Transcription of Growth & Sustainability #227
Dr. Lisa: As I’ve often said on the show, what I find interesting about having done this for the past four years is that, life kind of circles around itself. When I was practicing as a physician in Yarmouth, I was located in the Sparhawk Mill and also located in the Sparhawk Mill was GrowSmart Maine. Today we’re speaking with two individuals from GrowSmart Maine, not individuals who have spent time in the Sparhawk Mill.
However, you’re taking it to the next level, so we’re really glad to have you both in here today. We have Nancy Smith who has been the executive director of GrowSmart Maine since 2010. She served four times in the Maine State House of Representatives. She’s a member of Monmouth’s Economic Development Committee and serves on the board of the Rural Community Action Ministry.
We also have Susan Inches who was a senior consultant at Tilson Technology where she works to help communities find solutions to their broadband needs. She has taken the lead on a number of policy issues including working waterfronts, solid waste, and energy efficiency. She was the instigator and leader of the Climate Tour: Denmark 2015 project. Thanks for coming in today.
Female: Thanks for having us, sister.
Female: It’s great to be here.
Dr. Lisa: So I actually stumbled a little bit over the word instigator, because I don’t often see that word used in the business realm. Tell me what that means.
Susan: Well, what it means is that, back about a year ago, I had met people who’d gone to Denmark and been very inspired by what had been done there, and the people that had gone were students, and so I had the thought that if this was such a great trip for students, maybe it’ll be a great trip for leadership form across Maine as well. That’s really what prompted me to design an itinerary and recruit a group to go to Denmark.
Dr. Lisa: What’s going on in Denmark? That’s so interesting?
Susan: Well, Denmark found themselves in a situation in the 1970s where they’re completely dependent on foreign oil and they didn’t like that, and so they decided to start to move forward to create their own energy. What they’ve done is they have decentralized much of their energy generation where local communities are actually owning power plants.
Dr. Lisa: So this is interesting to you because both of you are working at GrowSmart Maine and you’re really looking to find a way for Maine to move forward in a sustainable way.
Nancy: Right, and energy is a big piece of that. I’ve been with GrowSmart since 2010. Now, Sue and I partnered on the trip to Denmark though the connection with GrowSmart Maine is pretty much through the trip to Denmark, that was where we take it down.
Susan: That’s right. We are partnering on that. I’m actually not an employee of GrowSmart, but we partnered on this project together.
Nancy: Yeah, GrowSmart came into the Denmark discussion probably about six months before the trip.
Susan: That’s right.
Nancy: Looking at who the right people would be because it really was limited. I think Sue was shooting for 13 people. We ended up with 14, so how do you get the appropriate mix of private sector, public sector nonprofits, the environmental focus as well as community-centered, because we knew one of the things that Denmark really offers is the … Sue mentioned decentralization. It really is about community solutions to the energy issue.
Their goal was to get off of fossil fuels, and for me, the biggest learned at this time is that, for change to have lasting power and further to be a real impact, it has to be at the community level. Those were the lessons learned that we were looking for when we headed to Denmark back right before Labor Day.
Susan: Yeah.
Dr. Lisa: The idea behind GrowSmart is that you really want to grow Maine in a thoughtful way. Who have the idea to do this in the first place?
Nancy: The idea for smart growth?
Susan: Well, I mean I’m assuming that lots of people have that idea, but somebody wanted to form an organization called GrowSmart.
Nancy: Yeah. It came back in 2003, there was a loosely formed group called ECO/ECO, Economy and the Ecology. Ted Koffman was one of the leaders. He’s just returned to our board actually, will be coming on in 2016. Alan Caron was a piece of it. There were I think probably a dozen or so people. It focused in Freeport where they were seeing sprawl. GrowSmart Maine started as anti-sprawl and then grew in 2006 to the point of releasing the Brookings report making headway Charting Maine’s Future where we brought in the Brookings Institution to look at really the big picture in Maine.
If you’re talking about sprawl as an issue, you’re not talking to all of Maine. So much of Maine is changing without growth, so Charting Maine’s Future really looked at what is it we love about Maine, how do we keep it while strengthening the economy. Since then, that really has been the focus. We’ve gone beyond simply planning, but it really is about helping communities manage growth, or change if there is no growth, rather than just react to it, trying to empower Mainers to be able to make a difference in their own community.
We do some community outreach, we do some events, we just finished our annual meeting which built on the trip to Denmark, and we do have the CACE in Augusta, a little bit in D.C., but we’re a staff of three and we’re very busy.
Dr. Lisa: Well, I would guess if you’re taking on not only energy, but anything that is related to growing Maine in a mindful way, right?
Nancy: There is the overarching things, I mean you can talk about the silos of transportation, and housing and infrastructure. We are part of the Broadband Coalition looking at how broadband can achieve that goal of a stronger economy, but in a way that really honors what we love about this place, but there are these overarching themes. Climate change is one. Aging in place. How do we help Mainers who want to age in their homes, but at the very least if that’s not possible, to be able to age in their own communities.
At the same time, one of the wonderful happenstances is that, anything that you do to help seniors age and make the communities more attractive for them also attracts the working population because they too want walk-able areas that are interesting, and safe, and great places to raise kid, so you’ll hear a phrasing about aging in place 8 to 80. It really is about all generation, so whether it’s climate change, or aging, or workforce development, it reaches all of the issues that incorporate how a community manages change and growth.
Susan: As you could see from my bio, I’m now working on the broadband issue and that absolutely is an issue about community, about public and private investment, and bringing Maine communities into the 21st Century, so these are all really important issues. There’s a lot of work to do, not only for GrowSmart, but for lots of other people that are engaged in these issues.
Nancy: Yeah.
Dr. Lisa: In addition to the broadband issue, you’re working on solid waste and you’re working on Working Waterfronts.
Susan: Well, no. Those are things that I worked on in the past, and actually, Nancy and I have known each other for a long time, because we both were in Augusta. Nancy was serving in the Legislature, I was serving as deputy director of the State Planning Office, and so that’s where we’re able to tackle a lot of these issues, and since then, now Nancy’s with GrowSmart, I’m with Tilson but we’re still working on community issues.
Dr. Lisa: Okay, so then, tell me what it is that from taking the lead on these policy issues, tell me what you brought into the future, into the work that you’re doing now, and the work that you’re doing with Nancy and GrowSmart.
Susan: Well, I think one of the things that was really a great takeaway for me from the Denmark trip, which really answers this question, is communities stepping up and investing themselves. In other words, it’s a great feeling going on that probably no one is going to rescue us and take us there without us standing up and leading ourselves, so there’s absolutely a role for the private sector, but there’s also a very important role for our communities. That’s what we’re seeing happen here in Maine as the communities are making choices, they’re coming together, and they’re making investments, so that’s really the connection that I see.
Whether that investment could be in a working waterfront. Investment, it could be broadband, it could be energy, so it could be many things. Not every community is the same. They all have different needs, so they are choosing where they want to go, but it’s about them figuring out what their plans are and then making those investments.
Dr. Lisa: How do you actually figure out what it is that a community needs and what they are motivated to do?
Nancy: That’s not for us to decide.
Susan: Right.
Nancy: The key is you talk to the community. We have a program called Making Headway In Your Community and we go out to towns. This coming year, we’re going to be in a couple of towns in Coastal Downeast and in Western Maine. You start with what is it you love about your community, what is it that brings people together? Sometimes, it’s the school. Sometimes, it’s an old building. Sometimes, it’s Main Street. You start with what they love and then you talk about, so what’s missing, where is the void, and oftentimes, it’s economic.
How do you strengthen the economy of that area in a way that keeps what you love, and that’s how we do community outreach. From there, we’ll have advocacy because if there are barriers to issues, you’ll move forward with that. One of the lessons to anybody working in Maine is, if you come into a town and say, “Thank God, I’m hear,” you’re not going to get very far. It’s about listening to them and then introducing a process. There are so many resource organizations across the state.
There’s government, quasi-government, nonprofits and people don’t know about them, and so one of the things that GrowSmart is really good at is connecting and being able to let folks know. I had a community call. We did a half-day meeting with some folks, and then as a follow up they called, and said, “Well, we’ve gotten approved. Hire an economic development director, part-time. Can you recommend someone?” I said, “Well, have you ever talked to your council of governments? You’re probably already paying dues and this is a regional governmental agency that works with communities on economic development.”
Those kinds of connections and helping them articulate what they love about their community and for people to recognize … If it’s something you want to do and you’re the only one pushing it, you’re not going to get very far, but if you can talk to your neighbors and talk to people who are as different from you as possible, and bring that group together, then you’re going to be able to make headway which is what we want for communities.
Susan: I could add to that if you like. I think Nancy’s right on about this. Communities are going to be leading themselves.
Nancy: Yeah.
Susan: We’re not going to lead them, but also one of the things that I’ve noticed in my experience is that, usually, there is someone at the local level who’s a champion for whatever the cause is. For example, if it’s creating a public boat ramp. There’s somebody who really wants that boat ramp in the community, and that person usually rallies other people around that issue and starts to move it forward, so that’s what we look for. We look for communities and I do this in my work now with Broadband.
We look for communities that have leaders who are already advocating for something that they want to move forward on, and then we provide some support, some resources. In the case of Broadband, we can provide cost-benefit analysis to them, but it’s really they’re leading themselves and there’s usually either a champion or several champions who are actively engaged in leading whatever that issue is.
Nancy: What I’d love Mainers, if you ask a Mainer, “Are you a leader? Are you a champion?” They will go, “No, I’m not that. I just get things done.” It’s so fabulous. I mean we’re just so down to earth, good boots on the ground people who don’t brag, so one of the things that we do is we have a website called makingheadway.me where you can find these resources, and you can post success stories that you’ve had. There’s only about a dozen success stories up so far, because Mainers don’t brag.
We don’t think of ourselves as leaders or champions, and again, when people like Sue and I come into a community, part of what we can do is let people see themselves as a success. If you find one little success and build on that, it gives people confidence and they keep moving forward. That’s the way change is going to happen. It’s incremental. One of the phrases I use that is true, and yet really frustrating sometimes, is you need to be bold and patient. You really need to have a big idea of what you want and be really happy with incremental steps, because that’s what going to have staying power.
Dr. Lisa: I’m interested in the fact that you served four terms in the Maine State House of Representatives.
Nancy: Yes, I did.
Dr. Lisa: While working on your family’s diversified livestock farm in Monmouth?
Nancy: Yes. By working part-time as a forester.
Susan: Yes.
Dr. Lisa: When you talked about boots on the ground, you really know what it means to have boots on the ground?
Nancy: At that time, I would do farm chores in the morning, and then go into the Legislature, and come home and do farm chores to wrap up. It actually was a nice balance because, in the Legislature, you get things done but it takes a great deal of time, and it’s really hard to come home and say, “I had a terrific meeting and it was a success.” It was nice to balance that with, sometimes the physicality of cleaning the barn, sometimes the satisfaction of feeding calves or moving the chickens.
We had rotational gracing at that time, so I’m not on the farm anymore, but I still try to stay connected. I raised 25 meat birds in my backyard on Main Street in Monmouth and they’re in the freezer. I still try to do, “How do you connect with local food? How do you raise your own food without actually gardening?” Between my chickens and my blackberries and peach trees, I’m learning how to do that.
Dr. Lisa: Sue, I’m interested in your background, and part because you actually have a degree from the College of the Atlantic.
Susan: Yes.
Dr. Lisa: Which is interesting to me because you must have been one of the earlier people to graduate. They haven’t been in existence very long, have they?
Susan: That’s right. I think the very first class was in 1975 and I graduated from the college in 1979. I think there were 14 of us in my graduating class, so we were early adopters and I’m just really pleased with the College of the Atlantic, because as I actually have said in one of our alumni meetings, I said, “A degree from the College of the Atlantic has actually appreciated over time.” When I first went there, people are like, “College of the what?”
Now it actually has a very strong identity in educating in ecology, which is human ecology, which is really about the interrelationships between human beings, development, and the environment. It couldn’t be more appropriate today, even more perhaps than in 1970s, so yeah, it was a great experience. It is a great experience to be part of that community.
Dr. Lisa: You also joined CEI’s Board of Directors in 2008 and you were the executive director for Habitat for Humanity in Maine, so your background just … You and Nancy both, you know, what haven’t you done?
Susan: That’s a great question, because as Nancy was talking about farming, I have also farmed. My husband and I did … We’re really early adopters. We did a CSA, which is Community Supported Agriculture. That word hadn’t been invented when we were doing it back in the ’80s, but we did grow vegetables for 75 families for five years. We’re not doing that now, but Maine is great that way.
It gives you an opportunity to do a lot of things and that’s been really fun for me to be in a lot of different places and I think all those experiences come together and then form what I’m doing today, which is really, really great.
Nancy: I said my career path is not one that a guidance counselor would recommend to anyone, but I came to Maine 1981 at age 19 for a job interview with International Paper and I worked for them for 13 years. I was a forest technician, I was overseeing logging jobs, and doing boundary line maintenance, and marking timber, and planting trees. I went from that to the family farm to serving in the Legislature, did a little bit more forestry, and as Sue said, that brought me perfectly to GrowSmart Maine.
I think bringing that real life and a true respect for rural Maine to a statewide organization with its office in Portland balances beautifully. When we talk about Maine, the challenge is, some parts of Maine have too much growth, too fast. We see it in Portland where there are people who want to slow it down, while others are charging forward and they’re in counties. Whether it’s Washington County, Oxford, Aroostook County, they would take anything.
It’s a real risk for Maine. If people are willing to say, “Any growth is good growth, any development is good development,” we need to worry about what that means for the communities, but to do it in a way that’s respectful of where that’s coming from for those towns.
Dr. Lisa: I can just tell, Sue, that you have some things that you’d like to jump in and say.
Susan: Actually, there were and I was listening to Nancy, but I guess this theme of, you can do a lot of things in Maine and another thing I love about Maine is you can make a real difference here. There isn’t many, many, many layers before you get to people who have decision making authority. You can actually make a difference. An individual can actually step out in their community and make a big difference. I think the Denmark trip is a great example of that.
When I thought about doing that project, it was a freelance effort. This is prior to GrowSmart becoming part of it, and it just showed me that, an individual can step out and do something and have a real impact, because the 14 people that came along on that trip were really excited by it and are now dialoguing and moving ahead in their own areas to do things as a result of what they learned. That was something where just an idea by one person can have an impact statewide, so I like to encourage people to follow their dreams and realize that, here in Maine, you can make a difference.
Dr. Lisa: That’s an interesting thing that you’re describing and that is sort of being open to what presents itself and being willing to make connections where, previously, they not only didn’t exist, but might not have even seemed reasonable.
Susan: Yeah.
Nancy: Yeah.
Susan: Yeah, I mean that’s true. Denmark, I didn’t know if that was going to succeed or not. I needed 10 people to break even on it. I was right down to the wire not knowing, I had maybe 7 or 8 people signed up, and I wasn’t sure if I was going to get the full roster, but I did, obviously it went over the line, and Nancy and her group were helpful on those last few people. Yeah, so even if the idea seems like it’s not feasible, I think it’s worth pursuing it because it’s amazing how people will step up and be supportive in Maine as well.
Dr. Lisa: One thing that I often kind of mentally struggle with is, there seems to be a dichotomy between the lofty ideas, the sustainability, and ecosystem, and then again, boots on the ground, the work required to actually move some of these things forward. What I like about what you’re describing is, you’re not saying, “Oh, here’s something, some pie in the sky deal that we’re never going to reach.” You’re saying, “Look, these things already exist. Let’s kind of strengthen where you already are and move forward with them.”
Nancy: It’s funny as you’re saying that I’m thinking of one of the phrases I’ll use fairly often, is just talking about duct tape and bailing twine. That’s how we farmed out of necessity and that pragmatic approach … I will say unpragmatic to a fault, what can we actually get done, but in order to get even that done, you’ve got to tie it to the bigger vision, the bigger dream. Again, oftentimes, it’s we want our children to raise our grandchildren near us.
Had a conversation earlier this morning with a woman and one of the things I mentioned was, early on, one of the first things I did when I came to GrowSmart was go up to Aroostook County and just reconnect with any folks from the Farm Bureau, and just really get the word out about what GrowSmart Maine does and how it’s relevant. One of the women I spoke with, her kids were in Southern Maine and we got into the whole concept about whether there’s a brain drain or not. I said to her, “Really, this brain drain is a misnomer.”
Young people, it’s not our best and brightest. There are some fabulous young people staying here, but when they’re moving, they’re moving to Southern Maine. They’re not leaving and what rang through loud and clear is for her that was irrelevant. They weren’t there for Sunday dinner and that’s where we talked about I think the frustration of trying to get a stronger economy up in whether it’s Western town, Eastern, Northern Maine. Having our kids in Southern Maine is good statewide, but not for the families that are in those areas.
How do we create opportunities; whether it’s jobs, or telecommuting, or entrepreneurship so that they can have their jobs where they’re raising them, and to Sue’s work now, broadband is a huge piece of that. It’s another infrastructure system that we have to figure out the right balance of public and private investments whether you’re in a dense area where there are customers or the rural areas where it’s harder to make the investments, or you’ve got to get more creative with the technology in order to make it work and that’s one of a dozen components that we need to be working on.
The phrase there’s no silver bullet, there is silver buckshot. There are a dozen things that we should be doing or 30 things that should be done. In Maine, they’re probably being done, and again, one of the things I love is connecting people, and say, “Well, did you know that this is happening over here? Here’s who you might want to talk to.” It’s to Sue’s point about you can make a difference and then you can also connect with people easily, and start taking what they’ve learned, and use it in your community.
Dr. Lisa: Sue, what are the top three things that you would like see happen in Maine over the next ten years?
Susan: Now that is a question I need to think about. I mean one thing that I’d really like to see happen is for our university system to get on more solid ground. They’ve been struggling with budget issues, they’ve been struggling with declining enrollments in some campuses and education is such a fundamental piece for all of our economy and really statewide. I’m really hopeful actually. There’s some really good people working on it right now, but I’d like to see them not only get stabilized but flourished and become a place that people look to as a place a of excellence where they want to go, so that would certainly be one of them.
I have to think about the other two. I mean I’m certainly working on broadband and the issue there is that … We’re actually in the middle of what some people call the Third Industrial Revolution, which is basically the next generation of communication technology and energy technology. A lot of people are feeling that their Internet is fine today and why would I need more, but actually what’s going to be coming very soon, I mean we’re talking two to five years, is something much bigger where doctor appointments are held online, where children in school have to do a lot of graphics and data and that sort of thing online.
They’re already getting there, but I mean all these things are going to go up a notch very shortly and that’s why I think towns are feeling some urgency to look into this issue, because how can we in Maine be competitive, how can we attract businesses here, how can we attract younger people here if we don’t have 21st Century communications and what’s going on. If you look at the statistics and the trends is that Maine was once at the forefront, but now we’re actually falling behind as other areas of the country are investing more in their broadband technology, so that’s another one.
If we want to be more than just a vacation place, we’re really going to need to broadly address the broadband issue, and even on the vacation side, what we’re hearing is that people who own summer homes here, people who come up here to vacation want really good communication so they can stay longer, contribute more to the economy, and have their life still working, their communications working while they’re here. I think this is maybe another really important part of how we should be developing in the next ten years.
Nancy: If we can answer that as a tag team.
Susan: Please.
Dr. Lisa: She’s done two. You get the last one.
Nancy: I get the last one, but I also want to go back to one of the things that was extraordinary here in Denmark, was they recognized decades ago that it’s a rural economy with very few natural resources to exploit, their word, they needed education and that was a huge commitment. Was it a hundred years ago or decades?
Susan: It’s a hundred years ago.
Nancy: That’s what I thought but it sounded extraordinary.
Susan: Yeah.
Nancy: They made that commitment and that decision a long time ago. When you’ll hear, “Well, what happens in Denmark won’t work here. They’ve got a higher per capita.” Well, let’s look at their education commitment and see how that has played out in a small island population, so I want to add that to education and given what we’ve already talked about, I think Sue would agree the third thing that I want to see thrive in Maine is this focus on by local on the rural economy on local foods. It’s expanding. People are working on local fiber. Think about where your wood comes from.
We’re not going to have, and it’s not healthy, to seek a really big mill that’s going to commit with 400 jobs. If it comes that fabulous, but what’s more realistic is that we build this, again, from the ground up. It’s going to be the businesses that start with one or two people and go to 20, or maybe go to a 50 or a 100. That’s what we want and those can be happening on farms, on value-added, on the distribution systems that they need, and the food system … I mean it ties into the economy, it ties into climate change, it ties into making this a great place where people want to live.
If you look at Rodney, and he’s one of the tools to get us there, natural resource sector and that “buying local” ethic really getting stronger, and the third one about education, if we did those in ten years, Maine would be … This is the key, Maine won’t be a different place. Maine could still be Maine, but be stronger and healthier whether it’s our communities or individual families or the businesses that we need to support all of these.
Dr. Lisa: Nancy, what’s the GrowSmart Maine website?
Nancy: growsmartmaine.org.
Dr. Lisa: We’ve been speaking with Nancy Smith who has been the executive director of GrowSmart Maine since 2010. She served four terms in the Main State House of Representatives, and also with Susan Inches who is a senior consultant at Tilson Technology where she works to help communities find solutions to their broadband needs. Thank you so much for all the work that you’re doing and all the work that you’ve done. I’m hoping that all of us will see what has happened, what you’re hoping will happen in the next ten years actually come to fruition.
Nancy: Absolutely.
Susan: Yes.
Nancy: Thank you so much.
Susan: Yeah. We hope so, too.
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Dr. Lisa: Putting new ideas into practice or even not so new ideas into practice, it’s an interesting role to play and today I have the great opportunity to speak with an individual who’s doing just that. This is Tyler Kidder who is the assistant director for Sustainable Programs at the University of Southern Maine. In summer, Tyler traveled to Denmark with GrowSmart Maine to learn how the country has reduced its fossil fuel use to address climate change. Thank you so much for coming in today.
Tyler: Thanks for having me.
Dr. Lisa: The assistant director for Sustainable Programs at the University of Southern Maine. That’s a big title.
Tyler: It is a big title. It’s a lot of words.
Dr. Lisa: It is a lot of words, so tell me, what does that mean in practice for you?
Tyler: Basically, at USM here in Portland as well as our two other campuses in Gorham and Lewiston, I’m responsible for operation and programmatic environmental sustainability. I do a fair amount of work directly with students, but also with the greater sort of Portland community, Southern Maine community, and the entire university community, so employees including staff and faculty, all sorts of different kind of things. Mostly, we do our work around energy, water, pollution, waste, transportation, greenhouse gases, and climate change.
Dr. Lisa: Before we went on the air, you were telling me that your office is actually situated in Facilities Management, so it’s a very practical aspect of what they’re hoping that you are going to accomplish in your role.
Tyler: Right, so I’m in Facilities, which is great because I’m connected to the whole operations team as well as the campus designers and architects. There’s a lot of opportunity around operational change, so for instance, we’re about to install our first electric vehicle charger and that’s all facilities work, and then on the flip side, once it’s in, there will be communications and promotional work which goes beyond my facilities work but it’s included in my job description.
Dr. Lisa: How did you get involved in this? What is your background?
Tyler: I grew up in Northern Virginia and I spent a lot of time outside. I was always outside as a little kid. I was encouraged to be outside and also wanted to be outside. I loved the ecosystem and how things interacted, and so when I was in school, high school and then in college, I kept sort of gravitating back to the sciences, but I have a natural strengths and skills in communication. I was always looking for the intersection of the two, how do people interact with the environment, how do people and social systems interact with ecosystem.
In college, I started on a sort of a pre-med biology track, did a lot of ornithological, bird, and entomological, insect research, but then realized that what I really was most interested in was humans and their impact on the world. I bounced around for a long time and then I moved to Maine in 2007 and I’ve lived here around since then. Once I got here, I was not using my brain all that much. I was doing other things and sort of living paycheck to paycheck and I decided it’s time.
I got in touch with USM’s Environmental Science Department, and I said, “I’m new here, but I could volunteer, or TA, or do anything you needed me to do. Are there any kind of opportunities for me to get engaged with the school and what you all are doing?” At that time, I was so new to Maine I didn’t know that USM had three campuses, so I was actually communicating electronically on the Gorham Campus which yielded a job after a little while in Dining Services, growing food in their greenhouse on the Gorham Campus, so I had this awkward reverse commute out of the city that I’ve just fallen in love with.
So then, it became, “How can I get back to Portland and be doing more closer to home?” Walking and biking to work was very important to me. I launched from the Dining Service’s job into the job I currently have when it came available and that was five years ago, so I’ve worked at USM for a total of six and a half years.
Dr. Lisa: Your family has a Maine connection?
Tyler: We do. My grandmother was born and raised in Brooklin, Maine on the Blue Hill Peninsula, and her last name before she was married was Tyler, so that’s my name.
Dr. Lisa: That’s your name, exactly.
Tyler: Yeah, and then my mother grew up in Maryland, coming up to Maine every summer, and then me and my sister grew up in Northern Virginia, coming up to Maine every summer.
Dr. Lisa: I’m interested in why it is that it became important for you to go with the GrowSmart team to Denmark? Well, relevance that have to your personal and professional existence I guess.
Tyler: There were a lot of people that were invited to go on the trip and who couldn’t go for a lot of reasons and I think Sue Inches very carefully kind of curated a diverse group. Near the end, she had filled up most of the spots and she had tried to get people from the university community to come, mostly through Orono, and they were either unable, or disinterested, or it was expensive, and so there was kind of a couple barriers to some people’s entry and there was also no president for it. People had a hard time understanding what it was really going to be like.
We now have President Glenn Cummings at the University of Southern Maine, he started in July, and as a new president, he has more sustainability knowledge and interest than any of our previous presidents at least in the time that I’ve worked at the university. He learned about the trip and strongly advocated for me to go. It was sort of all coming together, but at the last minute, someone wasn’t able to attend and so I got their slot and then I went. It just was such a gift and I’m so appreciative to Glenn for advocating for that, and then for getting to know that group of people, like, what an opportunity.
Some of the greatest thought leaders here in Maine, the people getting things done. I also and I think everybody on the trip would admit to this, I increased the age diversity a little bit.
Dr. Lisa: You mean you’re someone on the young side.
Tyler: I’m the youngest person on the trip.
Dr. Lisa: Is that what you’re saying?
Tyler: Right, yeah.
Dr. Lisa: Well, I won’t out any of the other members of the team I guess that are a little bit older than you. How do you think that that actually added to, not just by virtue of your age, but also your difference of experience? How do you think that that added to the group dynamic?
Tyler: It’s interesting, because I felt a little bit of hesitation going with sort of these big important people from the state and I felt like, “Uh-oh.” I might kind of be in over my head or sort of that impostor syndrome that you get when you’re like, “Am I really supposed to be at this table?” Which I think happens a lot to young professionals, I think it happens a lot to women, anyone who feels slightly out of their league, but it just totally fell into place.
There was another woman, Erica Mazzeo, who was also on the trip and she is a curriculum developer for Falmouth Schools, but I really feel the public education, higher education, research, and sustainability behavior change connection. I’m one of the few people on the trip that does programmatic behavior change. I work to change people’s behavior. We study what they do, we look at the barriers, design a program, implement it, tweak it, then celebrate it, and that’s very different than what are all the other people on the trip do.
They have finance or policy backgrounds, or they’re entrepreneurs, and my role is much more around the sort of the logistical, practical side of how do we change people’s minds.
Dr. Lisa: How do you change people’s minds?
Tyler: That’s a good question. I feel like there is a lot of answers to that and I don’t necessarily know. I think part of that comes back to what I’m saying about my background, which is that I’ve always been really interested in the ecosystem, but I just have an innate sort of talent for communication, and it’s empathetic communication. It’s finding a language, a vocabulary, a messaging system that works for your audience, and then delivering a message that makes sense to them. Taking into consideration what they’re going through, their knowledge base, their background, what’s important to them and their goals.
It’s very much tailoring a message to whoever you’re talking to, and it’s slow. It’s slow and it’s hard. It works best one-on-one. I have got thousands of students that some I don’t have time to meet with all of them one-on-one, so it’s finding creative ways to speak to people in a language that makes sense to them.
Dr. Lisa: How would you explain language that makes sense to us? What you saw in Denmark and what we might be able to translate to the State of Maine?
Tyler: There’s a lot that’s different about Denmark than here, and I think it’s important to acknowledge that we’re not going to look exactly like Denmark, and there are a lot of people that will suspend belief in the fact that we could change by saying, “We’re never going to be Denmark,” and it’s true. They are very flat, we’re very hilly. They have a milder climate than we do. There are very homogenous population. They generally have religion and race in common and a common European cultural history.
We’re very diverse. We’re very big, they’re very small, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but the cool thing is that Denmark is a lot like Maine. When you look at the whole country of the US, Denmark is not like the country of US, but we are in size, shape, and demography very similar, Maine to Denmark. There’s just a lot of really simple things that they have done. I think what’s most important is what really came back time and time again in our visits and when we would question, “Well, how do you get people to do this?”
They just have a very strong STEMs, so Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math. Curriculum and protocol all through their learning. When we’re talking specifically about sustainability, and climate change, and climate adaptations, resiliency, they have a background in science allowing them to understand the program. Not the program, allowing them to understand the problem and understand the solutions.
Denmark is a design leader in windmills, but also things like Legos, and they’ve been able to apply this advanced support of the STEM education through all sorts of parts of their economy and their culture. There’s no reason we can’t do the same thing here in Maine. If we did some simple reinvestment in our educational system, if we did more creative engaged learning opportunities, where students were getting hands-on experience and understanding what things meant.
Actually, I want to give a shoutout to King Middle School who is doing this work, and they walked over to the USM campus, and get tours, and they’re speaking about geothermal energy and they understand it, and they are talking about social change and isolation and they understand it. It’s really refreshing because there are packets of this being successful. I think on a larger level and more macroer scale, investing in STEM is one piece of it, but taking even a bigger step back, Danes have a ton of pride and Mainers have a ton of pride.
If there’s one thing we should be proud of, it’s our state and the natural beauty that we have, and our work ethic, and so if we apply those two things and we look with a very objective eye, we would see that the factories that are closing that have also been pollution sources, the way we’re starting to import oil or we’re talking about all the time, how can we increase our amount of natural gas.
Those things go against us supporting ourselves because they are imports. We can do better with biomass, solar, wind, and tidal power. We should be investing our pride and our space back and aligning it with our Yankee ingenuity back into our state. We have everything we need to do it. That’s not always been true, but the technology is there now because of people like the Danes who have developed it for us. We don’t lack technology, we don’t lack the know-how or the resources. We just lack the will.
Dr. Lisa: Well, that last one’s an interesting one, because for me, as a family practice doctor who deals with behavior change all the time on a sort of one-on-one basis, that there’s not a one key. There’s not, “Okay, I’m going to tell you the right words and you are going to change your behavior.” If you’re talking about doing something on a statewide level say, what are some things that … Approaches you might take I guess so that you can kind of get a lot of people excited, to get a lot of people to change, to move their will on a positive direction?
Tyler: Well, I think one way that people make changes is from hearing different viewpoints from their peers, colleagues, family members, neighbors. Running a successful grassroots campaign of any style revolves basically around knocking on doors, but you have to fire up the base so they want to knock on doors and there is a lot of that happening, but you’re right in that climate change and sustainability. In general, it’s kind of complicated and it’s not like, “Oh, just start riding your bike,” and then it’ll solve everything.
What we do here in the States, and I suspect people do it elsewhere, is they focus on what individual actions they can take, but really we’re talking about system change and that’s much more difficult. We get there by interacting with our legislators and our senators by being involved in our communities and I think community building and rejecting isolationism is super important. Right now, many people spend a lot of time listening to the radio, or watching TV, or watching things on the Internet, and they watch things that validate the thoughts they already have.
But when you’re thrust out into the community and you’re going to potlucks and events that happen around stock or gains, whatever it is, you’re exposed to other people’s thoughts. When we can encourage people to get out and talk amongst themselves and connect, that’s when the good stuff comes back around. When we’re reminded that we shouldn’t live in fear and we should be doing these things. The isolation is like an epidemic almost where people are more and more validating their own thoughts and feelings and around all sorts of issues.
We see it on the political spectrum all the time. This issue is not unique to that, and around sustainability, health and wellness, I think it’s important to remind people like they will feel better. I know that’s super simple and you can tell a smoker that they should stop smoking, and they don’t because it’s a lifestyle and a habit and there’s a lot of other factors. I mean there’s a reason we haven’t been successful at this yet and that’s because it is super complicated.
We’re bombarded by other messaging, and by branding and marketing, and we forget that the simplest fun can be free, and at home, and with other people. I digress, but I think what you’re asking is how do we change people’s minds on an individual level so that we can affect the system change. That just have to be a human to human message that makes sense to them and whether it’s saying something … When we talk about sustainability, people, your kids are going to inherit this, and if they can’t buy fish or buy lobster here in Maine because the lobster industry has moved up to Canada, if they can’t go safely outside without getting ticks.
These are climate change problems and these are things that each individual doesn’t necessarily need to do something about in terms of riding their bike to work or buying a Prius, but we have unprecedented connection to our state representatives and senators in Maine, because we have such a small population. They’re very accessible. I had my state senator at my house last week, so leveraging that makes Maine prime for fuel system change, and also the fact that we’re rugged individuals.
We’re pioneer folk who like to do our own thing and don’t like to be told what to do. We like things that are created in state better than things that are created anywhere else. All of that is very in line with the goals, the greater goals, the sustainability and climate change resilience.
Dr. Lisa: You bring up a point that I want to just explore a tiny bit and that is the fact that sort of … It’s almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy or we reinforce whatever ideas it is that we currently hold. I think that one of the things that I have struggled with over time is, we live in this era of I guess really significant judgment of others and this is, I believe, having been interested in the ecological movement for a long time and the sustainability movement for a long time, and the wellness movement for a long time, people don’t respond well to that.
People do not respond well to having somebody come in and say, “You are bad. You should change because you are bad,” but what you’re describing isn’t that. You’re not saying, “Oh, you’re bad people. Do things differently because you’re ruining the planet,” and I’ve got to think that that’s going to be more successful in the long run.
Tyler: Very good observation, because it’s very intentional and I think the environmental movement has a bad rep because it is sort of grandstanding in a way, it can seem very socially righteous in that I’m choosing to abstain from eating meat or I’m choosing to not buy anything that’s not locally made. There’s like many individual choices we can make that send a message about what we value and it’s just as easy to flip it and say, “Because you don’t abstain from meat, you are a bad person.”
That’s the power of our current system which focuses on the individual is you can spend a lot of time and energy, basically wasting time and energy. You can waste a lot of time and energy by obsessing and trying to make your self judgment-free in terms of others, so you want to not be negatively judged by anybody. A great example is like I would just run myself ragged trying to bike to work everyday and it just didn’t make sense everyday. It didn’t make sense everyday. I have car, like I didn’t need to be doing it everyday.
Also, I could bike to work, I could bike everywhere I need to go for the next 75 years of my life and it will not solve climate change. I think that removing judgment on the individual level is hugely important for getting people who might differently to feel the way you feel, which is don’t criminalize them, don’t make them feel bad for their choices, and also use their choices as a point, as a moment of learning and be like, “Oh, I try and ride my bike, but I don’t always do it.”
If they’re like, “Well, I only drive an SUV,” you’ll be like, “Well, that’s okay. We can still be friends,” because you might be a lovely human, and maybe you have an SUV because you have a huge catering business or seven children. I can’t judge you based on why you might drive what you drive. At the end of the day, you switching to a hybrid is not going to change the world, so we need to not be petty, we need to not be judgy. We need to elevate above that and try to work at the system level.
Dr. Lisa: Well, I definitely relate to what you’re saying and I found that it became most difficult for me when I went from being one person to being the mother of three people and married to somebody else. At that point, these are other humans with their own minds and their own ideas about how they want to do things. It doesn’t really matter whether you think that you’re going to do A, B, C, D, or E and you’re going to get some sort of outcome.
They’re still going to proceed all in their own path and I think if you broaden that out to your larger family, your community, then I think there is a way to kind of move forward peacefully in the world and also impact change.
Tyler: And being a model is one of the best things you can do, because I know when I meet people and they’re doing something, I meet them out in event or I find out that they do something, I’m much more likely to consider doing it myself. If I value what they value and if I identify with them, and so I try and walk the walk as much as I can, but not be judgmental when I’m having conversations with people, because you’re right, it doesn’t get you anywhere.
It’s almost like being a missionary and trying to invite people into your religion, what you firmly believe in, but which they have no context for. I don’t know how successful that usually is.
Dr. Lisa: Well, I don’t want to give anybody who might be a really successful missionary out there.
Tyler: Right, and we want to know your sales pitch.
Dr. Lisa: Like, there you go.
Tyler: We could probably use it.
Dr. Lisa: There you go. Well, I am fascinated by this conversation. I know that there are probably people out there who are interested in the work that you are doing as the assistant director for Sustainable Programs at University of Maine. Can you tell me how they might find out more?
Tyler: You can learn more by visiting our website, and it’s easiest to find it by Googling University of Southern Maine Sustainability.
Dr. Lisa: Well, I appreciate the time that you’ve taken today to come and speak with us about the work that you’re doing. We’ve been talking with Tyler Kidder who is the assistant director for Sustainable Programs at the University of Southern Maine. Thank you for the change you are making in the world and thank you for going to Denmark and learning more about what they’re doing with the energy over there. I’m sure we’ll hear more from you in the future.
Tyler: Thanks for having me. This was great.